Mar
23 2009
by Kazuo Ishiguro
A thirty-one-year-old woman named Kathy narrates this haunting tale, drawing the reader gradually into her recollections of her life at Hailsham, the idyllic boarding school where she grew up. She and her best friends, Ruth and Tommy, were encouraged by their teachers to create works of art from an early age, to collect cherished objects, and to take good care of their health. There are no parents in their world, only a handful of teachers, some of whom seem to be deeply troubled by their position at the school. Kathy’s friend Ruth is bossy and manipulative, while Kathy herself is gentle and self-contained. Both are drawn to Tommy, a boy given to explosive fits of temper. What is revealed, as Kathy’s reminiscences accumulate, is a life of preparation for a special role in a world that has begun to exploit the medical possibilities of genetic technology.
We thought we’d keep this post itself pretty simple. We’ve got plenty to say about the books but we’d like to keep that in the comments so that we’re all taking part in the discussion together. Instead we’re just going to offer up some possible discussion questions to help get people talking. You don’t have to stick to just these, though, feel free to just share your thoughts and your own questions. We mostly just want to get your brain juices flowing with these!
Never Let Me Go Discussion Questions:
- What were overall feelings about the book? Did you enjoy it? Does it make you want to read more of Kazuo Ishiguro’s books? Or, if you have read his other books, how would you compare it?
- We picked this book because of its mention in conjunction to Joss Whedon’s Dollhouse. Can you see why the tone, subject, and mood of the book reminded people of the new show on FOX? Or do you not agree with the comparison?
- What are your thoughts on the narration of the book and how soon and how much information is revealed? Would you have prefered to know about the characters being clones sooner? Were you bothered by Kathy’s tendency to wander around in the story?
- What were your thoughts on the way Kathy, the others, and society react (or don’t react, in some cases) to their role as donors? Kathy and the others do not truly seem to actively question or fight against their role, beyond hoping in the possibility of a defferal. The story doesn’t give us much exposure to the world outside Kathy’s purview but what small glimpses we do get don’t seem to indicate anyone is protesting or investigating what’s happening. What was your take on this?
When do you think the book is taking place?Ok! Ignore this one, the book establishes the story takes place at some point in the 1990′s.- Why do you think creativity was so highly valued at Hailsham? What significance does this play in the story?
- Do you agree with what was being done at Hailsham vs other locations? Do you agree with Madame and Miss Emily in thinking that the opportunities at Hailsham enhanced the lives of Kathy and Tommy and the others?
- Based on what we learn in the book, what other questions did you end up having about cloning? Do you think the book is asking if cloning is a legitimate possiblity or do you think it looks at the medical ethics and moral reprecussions of cloning? What kind of emotional responses did the book and its subject matter evoke in you?
Note: We used BookBrowse’s summary of this book and used a couple of their suggested discussion questions to round out ours own questions.
Re #1: I liked, didn’t love this book. I saw some reviews describe it as “a page turner” and I have to wonder if I was reading the same book as they were? Or do I just prefer my books light and fluffy? Whatever it was, I certainly wasn’t as enthralled with it as others were. I’d had it checked out from the library for awhile and after I had renewed it for the third time, I really had to force myself to sit down and read it so that I wouldn’t have to turn it back in before I was done. Which isn’t to say it was bad, just not “OMG, I can’t put this book down.”
Re #2: The book did succeed in making me think. I see now the connection that was being made to Dollhouse though, of course, the two are drastically different setups and stories. The sadness though is definitely similar with way the clones in the book and the dolls in the show are being used. More on this in a bit.
Re #4 (and some of #5): Ok this was one of my questions and it was based on a few reviews I read online and something I kept seeing brought up. I actually think Kathy and the other clones acceptance is probably an entirely different discussion. The review I read was bothered that society was ok with what was happening. That there were no reporters pounding down the doors at Hailsham or protests of any kind.
In my opinion, (1) I think we’re seeing an alternate universe in which cloning has been going on for quite a long time based on the stories Kathy tells of others who have come before them. So I think that implies that this has become an accepted practice within their society. And (2), while I guess he could have spent more time making that clear, it’s not the story he wanted to tell so it’s really besides the point. I’m just curious if any one here had this problem. I didn’t but then accepting something like this is not nearly as hard for me as it seems to be for others. (Possibly because I read a lot of fantasy?)
Related to that, I think if we accept that cloning is an established fact of the world Ishiguro has set up here, that kind of explains why Kathy and the others don’t fight their destiny. Even if you’re watching TV shows, etc., if cloning is apart of the culture then surely your TV shows and movies would reflect that? You wouldn’t question whether you should rebel against it, would you? Or is that something that’s also tied back to how these clones are raised. Those who attend Hailsham obviously get a slightly more humane upbringing, or so it seemed, but they still don’t grow up as normal children would/do. If you grow up knowing you have this other purpose in life, do you question it?
Re #5: I kinda addressed this above but I think this book is happening in a time close to ours based on some of the cultural references brought up. The tape Kathy listens and gets attached to… and the fact that it’s a tape really and not a CD. Made me think Kathy was a child back in the 80′s.
Re #8: This was one of the questions Hailsham brought up for me… Did anyone else wonder if the clones who ended up there were the clones of rich/famous people? Or maybe just gifted people. I connected that with rich and famous because I can see them wanting to see if the clones of famous artists or some of our greatest minds would end showing the same tendencies. Of course, we never really find out anything about the cloning process. If they’re cloning babies, I guess they wouldn’t know who would have those genes or talents. It was just the talk of them having “possibles” (was that they called them??) that sparked the idea in my head. If they were truly cloned from people, it makes sense that they would have doubles out there in the world. But I wonder how that works since I can’t imagine you’d want a clone to see their “possible” in a movie or something like that. They certainly never put any restrictions on them interacting with the outside world so maybe the cloning process isn’t quite as simplistic as I’m thinking it was. Anyway! Just a thought.
Ok, I’m gonna have more but these were the initial thoughts I had typed up so I wanted to get the posted first.
You know, despite them going off to find Ruth’s possible, I really didn’t believe they were cloned from actual people… it just seems like such a recipe for trouble to have duplicates of living people around. BUT, the one theory that could fit is what if every person that was born was cloned at birth so that they’d always have a perfect match organ donor for when the time came?
But since the clones do seem to believe without question that they have possibles, perhaps my assumption that it was untrue was wrong?
On page 139, Kathy says: “Since each of us was copied at some point from a normal person, there must be, for each of us, somewhere out there, a model getting on with his or her life.”
But it’s actually that comment that made me feel that it wasn’t true. Almost like that’s too innocent and bizarre of a thought, so they must be mistaken about the possibility of possibles. Imagine what it would be like as the human to have a clone of yourself track you down?
1. I thought it was an interesting read, but it lacked any real punch. I didn’t get very emotionally involved. *The Remains of the Day* is my default favorite book, and it’s much, much better.
2. I would have never made the connection if Tahmoh hadn’t, but I do see it. The tone and mood aren’t really comparable, but the subject is. The Dolls are very much like the students at Hailsham, not really aware of their true purpose…until they are, I guess. Both setups pose the question, “What is it to be human?” Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think the resemblance is largely superficial.
3. I actually liked the storytelling style, the way the nature of What’s Going On was slowly revealed. And I didn’t mind Kathy wandering around the story because that’s what happens when you tell a story, but I soon got tired of her making everything a Big Dramatic Moment by ending on these little cliffhangers like “It was all great UNTIL THAT ONE FATEFUL DAY.”
4. This was the strangest part of the book, really. I could never really come to terms with how accepting the clones were that they were only grown to be organ donors. I mean, how can you even care about your own life when you know that? Why wouldn’t you rebel? And I would have really liked to know what the rest of the world was like and what they thought of the whole thing. I can’t imagine there wouldn’t be Clones’ Rights bombings and such. I think Kathy mentioned something like that, actually, didn’t she?
5. I don’t have to think. It’s the late 1980s. The book says so right at the beginning. That was a real discussion question? What the hell, BookBrowse, did you open the book?
6. Creativity is the expression of a soul! So the clones have soooooouls now!
7. I appreciate the Hailsham experiment, but, going back to my earlier point, I wonder if it wasn’t sort of cruel to make the clones feel like they were special and talented when it didn’t matter a whit. They were never going to do anything with that talent; they were just going to die. I’m sorry, complete. I guess it’s better than if they had grown up in terrible slaughterhouse conditions?
8. The most emotional response I had while reading the book was when we discovered that Kathy was looking at old porn mags because she was looking for HERSELF. For some reason, that really hit me hard, her fear that there was something inherently wrong inside her.
And I didn’t mind Kathy wandering around the story because that’s what happens when you tell a story, but I soon got tired of her making everything a Big Dramatic Moment by ending on these little cliffhangers like “It was all great UNTIL THAT ONE FATEFUL DAY.”
But I think to her that’s what those moments were… because they don’t have much else in their lives. Her memories and how she interacted with everyone in the past is really all she has. There’s nothing in her future so I can see how that ends up magnifying everything in the past.
I wonder if it wasn’t sort of cruel to make the clones feel like they were special and talented when it didn’t matter a whit. They were never going to do anything with that talent; they were just going to die. I’m sorry, complete.
You know, I was surprised they didn’t jump to the conclusion that showing some promise or being especially creative would lead to a deferral. They were so quick to jump to that conclusion about if they found love they would get one but I kept wondering if the adminsitration at Hailsham was looking for something in particular about their talents. That’s what led to my thought about maybe these clones being cloned from people with talent.
Still, I suppose if you started out giving clones no life and you felt like if you gave them something, maybe it would at least enrich the life they do get to have. Or give them away to leave something behind? Though I would think anyone involved would have to convince themselves that what they actually do leave behind, their organs, are much more of a legacy than any painting or story could be?
Re #4 – I think they cared about their lives because they were told that they had a purpose. They believed that their purpose was to become a donor and that it was a noble one.
On page 227 Ruth, Kathy and Tommy were having a discussion about what it was like to donate and Ruth says: “I think I was a pretty decent carer. But five years felt about enough for me. I was like you Tommy. I was pretty much ready when I became a donor. It felt right. After all, it’s what we’re SUPPOSED to be doing isn’t it?”
And Kath mentions that this is the sort of thing you hear donors say all the time. I guess if you have no choice, believing you’re doing something good and fulfilling your destiny is what you do to get by. I kinda think we all do that to some degree… whether it’s about our jobs, or our habits, or lack thereof… we all rationalize our lives.
Sorry, it’s the late 1990s, I think. I don’t have the book with me.
1. I did enjoy the book, but I certainly wouldn’t call it a page turner either. More of a thinker. Because once I was finished reading it and had the complete story I was satisfied and couldn’t stop thinking about it, but while I was reading it I kept hoping for more.
2. I do see the Dollhouse connection. The Dolls aren’t clones obviously, but they are in an isolated, idyllic location where they’re allowed to indulge their desires until they are called upon. And there are similar questions of morality… is what they’re doing right?
3. I think this is where the book lost my interest somewhat, with all the jumping around in the narrative. I do agree that it’s often how people tell stories in real life, but I found myself becoming so frustrated with Kathy when she’d start one story and tell a few others before finishing the one she’d first started. Perhaps if it didn’t happen so much it wouldn’t have bothered me, but the whole book was like that.
I was also somewhat frustrated with not really knowing what they were until so late in the story. I don’t think it made the story worse – in fact it may have helped to ensure I kept reading to find out the answer – but I felt like I couldn’t really relate to the characters because I didn’t really know what they were.
OK, I’m going to pause there for now. Will be back with more on the other points.
4. I’m on the same page as P-C here… or sort of. Like Rae, I don’t have any problem accepting a world where cloning is the norm, BUT I found it really hard to believe that everyone in the story is so accepting of it. I guess we do see hints of people who have problems with it – like the teacher who tries to let them know what’s really going on, and eventually leaves Hailsham. But, the fact that NONE of the clones try to escape is what baffles me. Especially after they realize the whole deferral business is a lie, you’d think they’d be planning the great escape after that.
5. Heh. P-C is right – the book DOES say when it takes place (late 1990′s). It was actually my question… I didn’t remember that there was a date stamp at the beginning, and I was kind of confused when they got to the end and Miss Emily was talking about things that happened in the 70′s because she made it seem like SO long ago.
I think Rae has it right with the assumption that it’s an A.U. that’s running parallel to ours.
I think Rae has it right with the assumption that it’s an A.U. that’s running parallel to ours.
I didn’t really express myself well. I don’t think it has to be an AU. More an alternate path to our universe had we started cloning at some point in the psat.
Which might also be what you’re agreeing with Jody? I just wanted to clarify that I don’t really think it’s a parallel universe running next to ours but with cloning.
1. As I got going, and maybe not even until Part 2, I started to enjoy the book. But for the first few chapters, I found myself constantly fighting the urge to flip forward, flip to the end in an effort to figure out what the heck was wrong. As for the reviewers saying it was a “page turner”, I don’t agree. Towards the end, maybe, when I was so close to finishing, and it was like 1AM on a “school” night, I certainly couldn’t put it down! I’d be willing to read more of his books, because he does have a keen sense of detail, but his prose style, at least in this book, doesn’t make me want to run out and read another. Though on PC’s approval, maybe I will check out Remains of the Day.
2. “I would have never made the connection if Tahmoh hadn’t, but I do see it” – I’m the same way. Had I gone into reading the book without the Dollhouse correllation, I don’t think I would have connected the two, but the sadness of the life lived for donation versus the life lived for missions and being actives, etc., definitely stood out in my mind. The one glaring difference is that Kath really tries to find out her place, try for a deferral, get all of the info she can, and the Dolls are just there as emotionless beings who don’t know that they should be asking why.
3. I don’t mind the jumping around, from story to story, because that’s how I tell stories. I forget little details here and there, and have to start over, or go back. My concern with the story telling is that it took FOREVER for him to reveal that they were clones, and in my eyes, I’m not even sure if I would have realized it until Part 3, if I hadn’t read a review that mentioned it ahead of time.
4. I just kind of took it to mean that society was completely accepting of it, so that it must be a common thing, and something that this world, maybe this “alternate” universe, was used to, and so they didn’t let it affect their moral fiber, so to speak. It’s just something that’s done, no ifs ands or buts about it, and so they don’t think they should complain or fight the system. The way that Madame shies away from them, almost “afraid” to touch them, it would seem like there are some folks out there who have issues with it, but not the majority.
5. The opening says the story is taking place in the late 90s, so I thought the story was taking place end of the 70s/early 80s.
6. I think creativity was so highly regarded because they wanted to be sure there were no defects to the clones. To make sure that they weren’t dangerous to their “possibles” in some way.
7. I do think that I agree with the Hailsham way. They were treated more like real children, and lived a more sheltered, enjoyable life. It certainly appeared to help Kath live as a carer for much longer before becoming a donor.
8. I was sad for Kath and Tommy. Knowing early in the book that Ruth was obviously the one keeping them apart, it was just disheartening to realize that they didn’t have much time together, and then when they couldn’t get the imaginary deferral, it was too much. I really was left with an overwhelming feeling of sadness. And maybe a lot of little thoughts about cloning, and how it would even work, and why this man created a story like this.
I love being in a book club
The one glaring difference is that Kath really tries to find out her place, try for a deferral, get all of the info she can, and the Dolls are just there as emotionless beings who don’t know that they should be asking why.
Actually, I thought the acceptance we saw from the clones was similar to how the dolls just accept the word of those around them and don’t question what’s going on. The real difference, as Jody said, is that dolls aren’t allowed to advance in their thinking. They kept being swept clean.
The two will never be perfect parallels because, even though there is a bit of virtual cloning going on in Dollhouse, the purpose the dolls serve is much different from the purpose the clones serve in the book. That said, I suppose you could see it as a possible alternate outcome? What happens when you let them grow and you teach them and you don’t keep them in a doll state. Do they start to question things? Do they start to hope for an escape, even passively by hoping they’ll get a deferral?
The way that Madame shies away from them, almost “afraid” to touch them, it would seem like there are some folks out there who have issues with it, but not the majority.
I agree. I actually thought this reaction from her hinted at the fact that society actually sees the clones as something less than human. I also go that feeling when they were in the town and lied about where they were from. I can’t remember (sorry – returned my copy to the library!) if Kathy specifically notes that people act differently around them but there was definitely something she said during that sequence that led me to think it.
If so, it does explain why it’s become accepted as the norm. Or, perhaps, why we don’t see more people protesting their treatment. Perhaps society has also been desenitized to the whole thing at this point and doesn’t question their treatment partly because they don’t see them as human. It’d explain why Madame pulls away from them.
Re # 4 – It almost felt like society saw the clones in sort of the same way we see cows (for those of us who see them as dinner). We just accept what happens to them because that’s the way it is, and most of them wouldn’t be there in the first place if they weren’t there for our consumption. Or as Rae said – they are viewed as less than human. (Which is a much nicer way of saying it!)
BUT I found it really hard to believe that everyone in the story is so accepting of it. I guess we do see hints of people who have problems with it – like the teacher who tries to let them know what’s really going on, and eventually leaves Hailsham. But, the fact that NONE of the clones try to escape is what baffles me. Especially after they realize the whole deferral business is a lie, you’d think they’d be planning the great escape after that.
In this way, I think Ishiguro ignores what it is about humanity that would make this story impossible in our current world. Or, at the very least, impossible the country in which he sets it. Perhaps it would have been easier to believe there was no one in the immediate vicinity fighting the idea of clones and the treatment of clones if it hadn’t taken place in a free society? But I guess, if you want to explore what it would be like to be a clone, you might have to set aside the parts of our world that have stopped us from doing it and pretend we would? Oftentimes the story we get in that type of setting ends with someone, our main character 99% of the time, trying to show the world why something is wrong. Maybe that’s what makes it kind of hard to swallow here? Because not only does no one in the book seem to really fight the concept, our main character doesn’t seem to question her fate? Even after her last hope is snatched away from her?
As for the clones themselves, I think this is where we suffer the most from not seeing how their role is explained to them. That’s what I questioned before about why you wouldn’t rebel. Or, more importantly, why Kathy wouldn’t have heard of at least one clone who has rebeled. All of the clones we encounter throughout the story go quiently into the night and do not question their role. We are limited to only Kathy’s view of things but, if a clone had tried to run away or get away, I think we’d at least get Kathy shaking her head over them trying to escape the inevitable. Don’t you think?
Either Ishiguro again ignored that aspect of human nature to explore another or he just didn’t adequately explain why the clones weren’t fighting.
I could certainly fanwank it. Like if you’ve been cloning people for years and years, I suspect they’d have discovered a way to ensure the clones are kept pretty passive. Some kind of agressive hormone therapy or removing something? Clearly they have taken away their ability to procreate so it’s not farfetched to believe they did other things to control them.
Jody — you haven’t posted your question about why they would encourage them to have sex but, thinking along these same lines, I wondered if it wasn’t because sex is a way to keep them calm? Control their hormones in a way. Or maybe to fill a void of human interaction/affection they don’t get any other way?
Ah but see, I would think that creating human bonds and affection between the clones would just be more reason for them to want to rebel or escape. The sexual relationship seems to be what spawns the desire for a deferral in the first place.
Good point. I wasn’t really thinking any further than answer why they might encourage the sex. This is where not knowing anymore about the cloning process and the history of how they’ve treated clones makes it difficult to speculate. I could fanwank that originally they didn’t allow them to have sex but the desires were still there so they found a way to do it anyway. So then they took away their ability to reproduce and then encouraged them to have it so it wouldn’t seem like a forbidden fruit. (Adam & Eve anyone?) But maybe now they’re not realizing that it does add further complications.
Of course, if they see them as less than human, most would probably feel like they can’t possibly love… that that’s a human feeling?
SIDE NOTE: Just wanted to point out, since it’s a rather new feature for WordPress blogs, you can have your comment appear under the comment you’re address by using the “Reply” link at the end of that comment. I need to format these threaded comments a little better but, for now, it may be somewhat useful in these type of discussions? There is a limit on how many replies one comment can have but I can increase it if we start exceeding that.
My concern with the story telling is that it took FOREVER for him to reveal that they were clones, and in my eyes, I’m not even sure if I would have realized it until Part 3, if I hadn’t read a review that mentioned it ahead of time.
Not replying directly to Amrie on this one despite having pulled the quote from her. Just wanted to talk about this one a bit I guess and hers was the most recent answer.
I think I was spoiled before I read the book. I’m not sure from where or even when. Possibly before I decided to get the book for Jody and thought it’d be a good Book Club selection. So I can’t really talk to how long it took for the reveal because I felt like I knew from the beginning. Passive phrasing here because I can’t remember exactly when I found out and as I was reading I was never quite sure I knew for sure until it was definitely confirmed but I never really wondered about it like the rest of you did.
That said, going into it knowing meant that I caught the particular phrasing of things and the use of “donor,” etc., that I felt kind of hinted at it before they actually confirmed it.
And talking about this brings up, again, why I was a little confused about how much they knew and when. Because they seemed to be making their own words up for things. Well, they were and I think the Powers That Be clearly had their own terms for things that were specifically designed to de-humanize the clones. Instead of “dying” they “complete” as already noted by P-C. Which makes it sound like they’re reaching a goal, achieving something. Not dying before their natural time. That definitely sounds like propoganda terminology to me.
But the fact that they’d create their own words for things also seemed to make it feel like they definitely weren’t given all the information or access to resources that would change what they’d learned at Hailsham?
I kind of suspected all the way along that they were clones, but without actual verification I also kept wondering if they were unwanted orphans. Which I think would have actually made it even more creepy, so I think I was happy with the clones reveal.
I had that thought too, before I read the review, that perhaps, they were just children without families!
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Going back and looking at some of the pages I flagged as I was reading, it seems they were clearly told about the donations fairly early on in the book. Pg 81 – Miss Lucy: “You’re lives are set out for you. You’ll become adults, then before you’re old, before you’re even middle aged, you’ll start to donate your vital organs. That’s what each of you was created to do.”
So… you’d think that would have tipped me off to the fact that they were clones? Because reading it now, clones seems like the only possible answer, but at the time it just didn’t seem clear to me.